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Monday, March 9, 2009

Is he serious??????

Ok, this just floored me. If you are an Obama supporter (meaning, you voted for him and agree with his views), you may not want to read this. I might say some really mean things...I just saw on Yahoo that Obama overturned the Bush policy on stem cells.

First of all, he claims to be a practicing Christian, yet supports abortion. Now, he is "allowing federal taxpayer dollars to fund significantly broader research on embryonic stem cells because "medical miracles do not happen simply by accident,". No shit Sherlock...it's called a MIRACLE for a reason!!! So now, not only is he supporting abortion, he's supporting killing embryos for research that hasn't even proven itself yet. Adult stem cell research at least has some backing! I did not vote for Obama...nor would I ever. I don't agree with abortion. There are so many other options, killing an innocent child shouldn't be one of them. I don't agree with embryonic stem cell research for the same reason.

I don't think that spending billions of dollars on the ROADS is what this country needs. Granted, the roads are pretty crappy, but what are we going to do with wonderful roads if no one is working??? NOTHING!!! We will all be sitting at home on the couch watching a tv that we probably won't be able to afford to have turned on! How about spending that money on companies that really need it so more people don't get laid off? I understand that it will create jobs, but one of the largest automotive companies is about to declare bankruptcy...why don't we help them as much as we did the banks? I'll tell you why...everyone is afraid that GM, Ford and/or Chrysler will do the same STUPID thing the banks did!!! Had the auto companies gotten in first, I think they would have gotten the help they needed, unfortunately, it didn't go that way.

I don't think that ripping all the troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan is the right choice quite yet. There is still a lot to be done over there. Do I think it was a good idea to be there in the first place? Not really, but I do support them 1,000%. I have family over there, and I don't want anything more than for them to be safe at home with their loved ones. I don't want anything bad to happen to them, but I also don't think we're quite finished. Oh well, not my choice. I'm not the president.

I do not like Obama. I haven't liked him since day one. I pray for him, that he may be able to decipher what's best for our country, and I hope that he can pull off half the stuff he promised during his campaign, but I don't see it happening. He is a smooth talker (gee, why does he always have a teleprompter? There was another story about that last week!), yes he is an intelligent man, but I just plain don't like him. I do pray that this country can make it through the mess we're in right now, and I hope that he can help. I just hope he doesn't get re-elected.

This just got my blood boiling...my $.02.

~Peanut


"A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on."
-Carl Sandburg

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

1.) I have listened to many of the campaign debates and several Obama speeches and I haven’t once heard him say that he supports abortion. He has said that abortion is always a tragedy, but he supports a woman’s right to choose what happens with her body.

2.) “Medical miracles do not happen simply by accident” - or by act of god. Miracles as you may define them do not exist. Extraordinary events may occur, but that does not in any way mean that some invisible man in the clouds is responsible. Medical “miracles” happen because of the people involved in the research that forms the foundation for medical practice, and those that apply such research. They work every day in order to better understand the biology of life so that medical “miracles” may be performed by otherwise ordinary human beings.

3.) If you think that the destruction of a few embryos for the purpose of furthering science is such a horrible thing, then please, feel free to decline any future life saving medical options that may be offered to you if they were in any way made possible as a result of embryonic stem cell research. And, if you feel so strongly about saving embryos from destruction, then I suggest you turn your anger on fertility clinics. What do you think happens to the thousands of embryos that are no longer needed after infertile couples have happily conceived their child and gone on their merry way, leaving the rest of their potential children in the freezer? They are eventually discarded. Thrown away, without ever having lived a wonderful life, or having provided any benefit to society as a whole. Maybe instead of conceiving a child of your own some day, you could go adopt an unwanted embryo (or eight) in order to prevent its destruction. Go ahead, have somebody else’s kid.

4.) You know who will have money to turn on their tv? The people who are out their building the roads, that’s who, because they’ll have JOBS. And with any luck, by the time they’re finished with the roads the economy may be recovering well enough that they can either go back to their previous job, or find something better. Either way they’ll be out there working to make this country better and bringing home a paycheck to feed their families while they’re at it. I’d rather see people getting off their asses and doing something worthwhile than sitting on their knees praying for something to happen.

5.) Screw the auto companies, and the banks while you’re at it. If they made such poor business decisions that they are now facing collapse then that’s their own fault. Let them pay for it, not the American taxpayers. If the big three can afford to each take their private jets to Washington to beg for my tax dollars, then they can afford to fix their own problems.

6.) I agree with you on Iraq and Afghanistan. We never should have gone into Iraq in the first place, but since Bush’s god told him to invade, we now cannot afford to leave the job unfinished. Afghanistan was the only place tied to 9-11 and should have been our sole focus, at least until Bin Laden was either captured or killed. Yes, Saddam was a bad man, but he had nothing to do with the terrorism of that day. I thank your family for the services they have provided, and I hope that they all return home safely, and soon.

Cletus Pages said...

Holy Shit there Mr. or Mrs. leaving a novel for a comment. Well, you responded to the post, and I will respond to you. I will comment on each of your so called points.

1. What are you smoking? If he does not support abortion, then why did he repeal the abortion aid rule? He overturned a ban on U.S. support to international aid groups that provide abortion services around the world. So if he is so against abortion and thinks it is a tragedy, why did he do this?....That's simple, he is a baby killer.

2. I take it you do not believe in GOD? Miracles don't exist? Ok, explain this to me then. What exactly happens once the sperm fertilizes an egg? What goes on in there? Science cannot explain what happens. Something happens, because it produces life. Maybe a miracle? Or how about someone who has cancer and then it all of a sudden goes away without any medical treatment?....Maybe a miracle? How do you know that GOD didn't put that doctor in that exact spot at that exact time and with the right material to find a cure for something?

3. Embryonic Stem Cell research has been around since 1997 and has cured exactly "0" diseases. That's right, they haven't cured a damn thing. Look it up, it's a fact. Now, Adult Stem Cell research has found cures and treatments for over 50 diseases. And it does not kill embryo's like Embryonic does. You can look that up to and see the truth about it.

4. Yes, building roads will put people back to work, but only those who work in road construction. There are what, roughly 4 million people or more laid off. I doubt there will be enough road work to employ all 4 million people. Is building new roads going to put a teacher back to work?...or a carpenter?...or one of the thousands of people from banks and the auto makers back to work? What about the people who lost their house, how is a new road going to help them? If you have a job, you should be thankful that you are blessed to have one right now, instead of bitching.

5. I kinda agree with you on this one. They all got to big and to greedy when times were good, and now when times are bad they are freaking out. But I do feel bad for all the people who have lost their jobs as a result of them cutting workers to make ends meet.

6. President Bush did what he thought was right, and not the thing that was most popular. I give him credit for having the balls to go and do it. Are we and the world better off because we went in there and got Saddam out?...YES WE ARE!!! I bet you are the kind of person who is a yes man or yes woman. You agree with the majority, instead of standing up for what you believe in.

I think I just typed more than you did.....lol. I bet you are one of those Liberal Lefties out there who think that the government should control everything that we do. The government has no right getting into any of our business unless we need them to get involved.

In closing, I will pray that you and yours are healthy and happy. GOD BLESS YOU!!!


Cletus

Kasia said...

Wow, where to begin?

I guess I'll start by saying that while I don't agree with everything Peanut posted, I agree a lot more with her than with Anonymous' responses. I don't have a lot of time here (got to get cleaned up and get to a funeral), but I'll cover what I can and come back later.

Anonymous:

1) I understand the distinction many people choose to put on their support for having abortion be available on-demand (and beyond - we won't get into taxpayer funding and whatnot right now). I used to do the same thing, because it's what my parents and all my friends taught me. However, there are some inconsistencies with that position.

For one, why is abortion "a tragedy"? The difficulty with saying that it should be (as Clinton famously posited) "safe, legal and rare" is that one has to wonder why it should be rare if it's not morally dubious (to give it more benefit of the doubt than it probably deserves). And if indeed it is morally dubious, we should get at why it is; because some things that are immoral are illegal, and others aren't.

I say (and I think Peanut and Cletus would agree with me) that abortion is murder. It is taking the life of an innocent human being (and please don't give me the "clump of cells" line, because at the point one could plausibly even try to argue that, the only abortifacient used is the morning-after pill). As such, since murder is illegal, so should abortion be. Because it isn't just a question of what is happening with the woman's body. There's another body in there; one that an abortionist needs to reconstruct in the event of a vacuum abortion, to make sure all the body parts are present and accounted for. (Yeah, some clump of cells ya got there, doc.) If it were just the woman's body, you and the President would have more of a logical leg to stand on.

So much more to say on this, but time dictates that I move along...maybe when I come back this evening...

2) We're getting into a problem of definition with "miracles". You, and I presume the President, are talking about research breakthroughs. Peanut is talking about divine intervention. You may choose not to believe that God exists or that He intervenes in our affairs, but I know a woman whose son had a tumor - a tumor he was being unsuccessfully treated for - that was there before he was prayed over and was gone when he got in the car after having been prayed over. (And yes, they went to the doctor after, and the tumor was really gone. Hasn't been back - Deo gratias.) I'm not sure how you would explain such a course of events from a strictly naturalistic POV.

3) Actually, I think I would decline a medical option that I knew had required ESCR to develop it. Something about my life not being worth more than any one of the lives destroyed, and not cooperating in a grave moral evil. But I kinda doubt there's going to be a lot of huge breakthroughs on that front, because ya know, they've been doing ESCR for quite a while now, some of it federally funded and some of it privately or state funded, and the best therapies they can come up with have nasty side effects like secondary tumors. (Ooh, where can I get some of that?) Adult stem cells, on the other hand, have been used in over 70 effective therapies. And with sources like cord blood and marrow available, I just do not see why people cling so hard to ESCR.

But you bring up a good point. I for one, mean awful person that I am, do not support IVF for exactly the reasons you intimate. So yeah - I don't think fertility clinics should be creating those embryos anyway. Does that help you understand where I'm coming from at all?

Yes, I get that it is excruciatingly painful to want a baby and not be able to conceive and carry one by ordinary means. Yes, I wish, hope and pray for infertile couples to be able to have children. But not at that cost (and I'm not talking about the dollars and cents). Sorry. And your proposition of adopting an embryo? If they can work out the biology, and if the Catholic Church approves the moral concerns (too complicated to explain in the time I have), then I'd be open to it. Sure. Same as I'd be open to adopting someone else's unwanted child who's been born. All children - all human beings - deserve to be born and to be loved. I as an individual don't have the resources to take all of them - or even most - but I'll do what I can.

Alas, I need to get going now...and right before you and I would've found some common ground to share! Since you so adamantly do not believe in God, I won't taunt you by suggesting that He bless you...rather, let's just say that I hope and pray for the best for you and yours. :-)

I'll try to come back this evening and say more. Take care.

Jaibee said...

In response to Anonymous:

1. It seems that President Obama has more interest in the promotion of abortion than just to keep it legalized. He is filling staff positions with some of the most radical pro-abortion members he can find, is pushing through legislature which will direct federal dollars to the abortion effort and is promoting legislature which would make it illegal for a doctor to refuse to terminate a pregnancy. That last one, to me, is especially scary. To have your government force you to do something that goes against everything you believe in? Even if I did believe that women have the complete right to choose in regards to their unborn children, why are we not respecting the doctors' right to choose whether to perform or not perform the procedure? We should be at the very least pro-choice in that regard as well, or we are severely lacking in integrity, and it ceases being about being pro-choice and turns into being pro-death.

2. A miracle by definition is a supernatural event -- meaning one caused by God. You are correct in your last sentence to put it in quotations, because you apparently do not believe in God or miracles, as correctly defined. I don't think that any person can definitively prove or disprove the existence of God -- that is a matter of faith, which itself is a gift from God. Since this cannot be proven, I personally would be reluctant to state definitively that miracles do not happen by the act of God. I do believe in God. I was also atheist for much of my life and understand where you are coming from (assuming that that is your position). It is always more likely that there is a common explanation for an event, rather than a supernatural event, but this does not mean that God cannot work through these means to effect His ends.

3. Yes, I believe that destruction of life for the purposes of "furthering science" is a horrible thing. There were also many horrific experiments performed on people during the holocaust under Hitler's regime. Just because something is done in the name of science does not mean that it is ethical and not to undergo moral scrutiny. The field of ethics is absolutely a rational discipline, and if we are scientists to be applying logic and scientific theory to the world around us, then we also should apply logic to determine the morality of our studies as well. Why turn off one part of our brain? Yes, we can drop nuclear weapons on places if we so choose, but ought we? Something to think about.

Yes, I would refuse treatment if I knew it derived from embryonic destruction. My life is not more or less valuable than anyone else's life.

I think that people mostly just don't get it -- that abortion and embryo destruction is really murder, the killing of another life which is human from the beginning (it's not going to turn into a rabbit, after all). I think that most of the time, they are rational, caring people who are legitimately doing what they think is for the best. They just aren't thinking through it all the way. Believe me, I understand this, because this was *exactly* what I was going to do as my career. I love people, I love children, and I was going to do whatever humanly possible to make sure that people who wanted children could have them. My logic and presumptions were faulty.

I think that the mass destruction of unwanted embryos as a results of fertility clinics is a horrible situation in which we find ourselves. In fairness to the couples who underwent the procedure, there is tremendous pressure to make more embryos than you intend to have as children due to the cost of the drugs and the physical hardships, etc. And, I do not think that it is an easy thing to live with the knowledge that you have other children on ice in some doctor's office. I actually do kind of like the idea of being able to adopt an embryo and give another child the opportunity of being born. I would do this, were I not single. From both a logistical concern (that I could support this baby), and from the fact that in an ideal situation, a child would benefit from both a mother and a father. But, if it were a case of me versus bleach.... Hopefully, it would be found appropriate that I could carry this child.

4. I don't know about this particular "road job" issue, but I know that the economy is not going to be a quick or easy fix. I agree it's going to be a lot of hard work, and "just sitting around" is not going to make anything better. But, I do believe in prayer as being efficacious. :) God doesn't ask you to merely pray, He asks you to *do* things as well. :)

5. It is tempting to want to blame companies for poor decisions and greed and to desire to see them hanging out to dry. However, that may not be in the best interest of the people of this country. No matter how much they might "deserve" to not get a bail-out or whatever, the issue is much more complex than that and we have to weigh justice in the light of the greater good. We don't want to act emotionally or hastily and find out that we just figuratively shot ourselves in the foot. I pray that those in charge will be able to negotiate these tough times with skill and good judgment. Now is not the time for blame, but for salvaging what we can and rebuilding our financial health.

6. I don't claim to know all the nuances of the war in Iraq, much less Afghanistan, and I'm certain that there is information that the president has that the general public does not. I have my opinion, but I know my knowledge is deficient, so I don't presume to say one way or the other. If by "Bush's god," you meant the Christian God, I think that is an erroneous statement. If my "Bush's god," you meant something inside of him compelling him to go to war with Iraq -- I am not in a position to judge another person's heart, but it is entirely possible. We all have things which are "god" to us, whether it be a preoccupation with money or power or food or social status. Very few are not enslaved to something. I personally am former military, and have all the respect in the world for my brothers and sisters out there, and pray that they come home safely.

I pray that all people will come to a greater understanding of love, for each other, themselves, and for God.

Peace, and thank you for your comments.

Peanut Publications said...

1) How can he NOT support abortion, but make it legal at the same time? If he doesn't support it, it shouldn't be legal. How about teaching kids (I use the term loosely) how to close their legs and say no? Or telling them that the act of sexual intercourse really should be saved for the person you're going to be with for the rest of your life?

2) Kasia is correct, I am referring to divine intervention. I totally understand that people are in the right place at the right time and that's when some cures are discovered, but have you ever wondered why they chose the road they did? I am grateful that there are people devoting their lives to medicine (my sister and a good friend of mine are two of them). Miracles definitely exist...it's just a matter of believing in them.
Kasia - Deo gratias for sure!!!

3) Anonymous, one question...would you destroy your own child to further science? I would venture a guess at 'no', so why destroy the embryo? I would also probably refuse a treatment if I knew it was a product of ESCR. Why support it if I don't believe in it? I don't like fertility clinics either. I believe that every child is a gift from God, and I can't wait to have my own! However, if it's not in the plans for me to bear my own children for what ever reason, I probably will adopt. There are way too many homeless children out there right now.
Kasia - "And your proposition of adopting an embryo? If they can work out the biology, and if the Catholic Church approves the moral concerns (too complicated to explain in the time I have), then I'd be open to it. Sure. Same as I'd be open to adopting someone else's unwanted child who's been born. All children - all human beings - deserve to be born and to be loved." I 100% agree with you on this.

4) So, what should the rest of the millions of people that have been laid off do? I don't think everyone can build a road! I would like to see the people that have been laid off be put back to work, but that doesn't mean I won't be glad that SOMEONE in this country is working. I really, really, REALLY hope that the economy is turning around by the time the roads are done! More power to the people that work solely in road construction because yes, THEY will be able to support their families at least until that job is completed. But the damage has already been done in a lot of other aspects. I don't know that we will ever live the way we once did.

5) I agree that the banks and the auto companies were dumb enough in the first place to get themselves in trouble, but in my opinion, the money went to the wrong people and that was the point I was making.

6) I think I will speak for most of my family when I say 'thank you' for the well wishes.

Also, I know these are very touchy subjects for some people, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I thank you for yours. I always enjoy seeing other peoples viewpoints on things.

Anonymous said...

Alrighty. There are quite a few different points here. I think that my response may have to be two parts. The first (or only, if I don't get to the second), will be to respond to the first comment. The second will be directly to Peanuts blog.

1) Support of this idea comes in two phases. Direct, and indirect. Obama says he does not support abortion. This would be direct. Unfortunately, his support of a womans right to choose is indirect support, and as such, is still support. It is a classic example of the doublespeak he used to get himself elected. You fell for the trap, as many have.

2)The word miracle is overused to the point of taking on a new meaning. In the medical field, a miracle is something that nobody envisioned being possible, but, through research and persistence, occurred anyway. In this respect, you are correct.

3) Thus far, no breakthroughs have occurred due to ESCR, so no worries there. That is not to say that something won't come of it in the future. Peanut's choice to accept or decline options resulting from this research will be hers to make. You make a gruesome, but valid, point.

4) People building and repairing roads will be able to pay their bills, IF local governments have the money to pay the construction companies. Local governments get their money from taxpayers. If taxpayers are out of work, gov't doesn't get their money. If taxpayers ARE working, but are scraping by, they still aren't buying products, which generate sales tax, which means gov't gets less money. It's a vicious circle.

5) I agree.

6) I agree somewhat. I know there are things going on behind the scenes that we will only know about when the History Channel uncovers and broadcasts them 50 or so years from now. IMO, we should have absolutely flattened the offenders, and gotten out. Game over. It used to be the American Way. Liberal ideals have made America weak. This wrist-slapping, asking for permission crap is a crock. My family does not threaten. It just does, then makes no apologies. Life is hard. America used to be that way.

Anonymous said...

Part two follows:

Embryonic stem cell research is a complicated moral issue. When an embryo is conceived in the traditional manner, meaning as a result of two people who are wholeheartedly in love and engaging in procreation, the embryo should be considered a valid life. The end. The problem comes in with such things as in vitro fertilization, "test tube" babies, artificial insemination, etc. These are not the will of God, they are the will of man. When life is created by the will of God, only He has such right as to end it. Traditionally, only He has such right as to create it in the first place. When man creates life, he has already overstepped his bounds. Having done so, does he have the right to end it just as nonchalantly? What happens to all those fertilized eggs that man has meddled with? What is there to do with all of them? They are discarded. That goes against the 6th commandment- "Thou shalt not murder". Yes, you read that right. The meaning of the Hebrew word that has been translated to mean "kill" is much more narrow than that. It's meaning is related to something criminal. When taken as it is meant, all possible avenues to preserve life are to be taken, even to the point of killing, if absolutely necessary. Defending one's family against a criminal to the point of taking his life is allowed by this commandment. ESCR is a slippery slope, as mans creation of life would seem immoral in the first place. However, having created this life, and faced with the choice of discarding it, or using it to further life in the future, one should take the path of lesser evil. Which is less evil? Outright murder? Or killing with the intent to save lives? A true conundrum. I'm not sure there is a true and proper answer. On another note, there IS new research being practiced where stem cells are harvested without damage to the living embryo, and this MAY be the reason behind Abama's decision.

As far as the big companies and their possible failings: let them fail. What makes you think that they will make smarter decisions with their money just because government gives it to them? Government money comes from somewhere. Care to take a guess where? YOUR POCKET. If a company can't make proper decisions in order to remain viable in this economy, the only option is to close down. The Federal Governments job is not to get involved in private business. To let them is to ruin the very foundation our country was founded on. They have jobs to do. These jobs are listed, and they have far overstepped thier bounds already. We, the People, need to put Gov't back in their place. America has already gone through this cycle once. Society went running off, spending out of control, living beyond it's means, and caused the economy to collapse as a result. This resulted in the Great Depression. America emerged from this strong, and willing to move forward with a lesson learned. Our generation did not live through the lesson, and is on the precipice of having to learn it first hand. America needs the lesson, apparently, because it has gone and done the same thing. Spending out of control, living beyond their means, expecting that the good life can never end. Letting government get involved is NOT the answer. America is a capitalist nation, and has thrived as such for over two hundred years. The current administration would have you believe that the answer is socialist programs. It is not. The answer is a reset of the rules already in place in the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution of the United States. Let the economy go the way it needs. Poor business practices will go by the wayside, customer service and quality product will once again become the object, with properity being the revered side effect. Higher taxes, which fund these bailouts and social programs, only get in the way. The right road ahead of us is and extremely hard one, but it has been traveled before, and can only end in strength and properity. Abama's road is much smoother, at the outset, but will quickly deteriorate into one that WILL be ultimately unpassable.

Anonymous said...

Nice, I just realized I misspelled the word "prosperity" twice, omitting the s. Also used "and" toward the end where I meant to us "an". Criminy.

Anonymous said...

Wow! Cletus, you thought I left a novel for a comment. What do you say we print and bind these so we can sell them as a series? We can even donate the proceeds to your favorite charity. BTW I don’t smoke and I never have, not even experimentally. I’m certain that not everyone here can say that.

1.) The legality of abortion and the difference between being pro-life or pro-choice is largely a subject of opposing opinions/beliefs. As such, I am solid in my position and I certainly don’t expect to be able to change yours, so I will leave this issue with my previous comments. But, I will address what Peanut has to say about teaching kids “how to close their legs and say no.”

Last I knew the Catholic church was against any kind of sex ed. if it wasn’t teaching abstinence ONLY. (Please correct me if the church’s position has changed on this.) We all should know (whether we want to admit it or not) that teaching abstinence only does NOT work. Teenagers are naturally rebellious and they’re going to experiment. They may do it with drugs, smoking, alcohol, sex, or by some other means. But, there are very few that walk the straight and narrow. Sure, you might be able to scare the shit out of a few, but many more are going to experiment sexually. Knowing that this is the case, why on earth would you stress abstinence as the only effective method of birth control?! As uncomfortable as it may be for our prudish society, we need to be teaching our children about condoms, the sponge, diaphragms, dental dams, the pill, the shot, and the many other methods of preventing pregnancy. If we’re not funding this kind of education, then how can we possibly expect to see a decline in the number of abortions being performed in this country? I believe that this may be what Clinton meant by ‘rare’ in his save, legal, and rare quote mentioned by Kasia. Let’s educate our children so that there is no need for an abortion in the first place. Sex isn’t something to be ashamed of. It’s part of life. It’s part of who we are. We are animals after all, like it or not.

Oh yeah… please, take it easy on the libel. I’m reasonably certain that President Obama has never killed a baby, or even snuffed out an embryo. I’m sure he wouldn’t appreciate having someone accuse him of such an act.

2.) You don’t want to go down miracle road with me. You’ll just wind up frustrated. Just because we may not know exactly why or how something happens doesn’t mean that it’s an act of god. It just means that we may not sufficiently understand the processes involved yet. I’m using ‘we’ collectively, because there are a lot of things that I cannot personally explain, but that have been thoroughly studied and sufficiently explained by others. The problem with science is that as it answers one question it often finds another hidden behind it. Also, you might want to check out the Wikipedia article on human fertilization before you claim that we don’t know what goes on in there. I think we seem to have a pretty good understanding of the events.

How do I know that a god didn’t play a role in some doctor finding a certain cure? How do you know that one did? I would guess that you don’t know that. It’s a matter of faith. For me a supreme being is just an extravagant addition to the story, not a necessary piece of the plot.

3.) You’re missing a word there. “That's right, they haven't cured a damn thing.” I would suggest adding “yet” to the end of that sentence. IMHO the reason for this is largely a lack of government funding for esc research. If the research is never funded, we can never know what benefits may come from it. Most of you seemed to agree that you would not accept medical treatment if you knew that it was derived from embryonic stem cell research. Well, that’s easy enough to say when you’re healthy. Get back to me on this if you ever actually find yourself on your death bed and the only option remaining is the product of such research. I think most of us probably fear our own death more than the death of someone else, especially when that someone else has already passed.

I almost forgot. Peanut, I know you’re getting married within just a number of weeks now, congratulations. I don’t know how soon you plan on starting your family, but you’ve been baby crazy for years, so I can’t imagine you’re going to wait too long. With that in mind I found a couple of sites that you may be interested in if you are serious about possibly adopting an unwanted/unneeded embryo leftover from someone else’s pursuit of happiness.
http://adoptanembryo.net/
http://www.nightlight.org/snowflakeadoption.htm
I see no reason for you to even attempt to have a child of your own if every child is just as precious as the next. Why not rescue one of these precious balls of cells from either certain destruction, or indefinite pause as they wait for you, frozen in time? After all, they’ve already been put together, they just need some womb to grow.

4.) Two things here. One, building roads is just one example of how the stimulus package aims to put Americans across the country back to work. It’s far from the only thing that’s hopefully being done.

Two, is everyone so short sighted as to think that a construction workers paycheck is going to stop at his/her bank account? Think about it. Hypothetically speaking… I’m a construction worker that has been out of a job for some time. I’m finally put back to work making a decent wage rebuilding roads. I’m feeling pretty good about where life is going (or at least better than when I was out of work). Maybe I decide to buy my first house (instead of renting). I’m now paying property taxes, which fund my community and its schools. I’m busy working long hours on the roads so I hire someone to mow my lawn every couple of weeks. My spouse and I decide that it’s time to start our family, but maybe the house is a little too small. It’s time to either remodel or add on, so I hire a contractor who has a crew come build my addition. Maybe, I’m feeling financially secure enough to take my significant other out to dinner once or twice a week.

Let’s figure out who benefits from me and the many others who have been put back to work as a result of the stimulus package. Shall we?
Community and Schools:
Firefighters
Police Officers
Teachers
The person mowing my lawn.
The contractor and his team.
Going to dinner:
The business owner.
The cook.
The server.
The person bussing tables.
The greeter at the door.

No, one construction worker isn’t going to make that much difference alone. But, I’m not the only one. There will be thousands of us nationwide. Enough about that, though. Let’s move on.

5.) Enough said on this one.

6.) Check out this article from the San Francisco Chronicle. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/10/07/MNGNVF3SFM1.DTL)
I am obviously not a ‘yes’ person and do not just go along with what seems popular. If I was, I would share your belief in a higher power and your conviction that what you believe is the truth. After all, non-believers are a small fraction of the American population. If anything, Cletus, you are a ‘yes’ man. You are a Catholic, and what the Pope says is what you say.
One last thing… I am only as much a Liberal Lefty as you are a Religious Right Wingnut. You’re views scare me at least as much as mine must surely scare you.

Thank you all for your extensive, thoughtful, and mostly considerate responses to my original novel of a reply. I wish you all the best. Congratulations again, Peanut and Cletus, on your fast approaching wedding day. I only wish I could be there to help you celebrate your future together. Good luck.

Peanut Publications said...

Ok, now I'm intrigued...who are you? lol I'll have more time to post a reply later on, but right now, I need to get ready for work!

Kasia said...

I see no reason for you to even attempt to have a child of your own if every child is just as precious as the next.

I can see two reasons, offhand. First, while I didn't find cost information on the first site, Snowflake listed out the costs. Looks like it costs a minimum of $11,000 and up to about $20,000 for one adoption.

Second, related to that, it sounds like they are promoting this option to infertile couples as an alternative to undergoing IVF themselves.

It doesn't mean one shouldn't consider it - certainly a human life isn't a question of dollars and cents - but it's certainly a disincentive and/or stumbling block for people who don't have tens of thousands of dollars in ready cash (like me and my husband). I also saw a requirement on at least one of the sites that the couple have been married at least three years; so if Peanut's as "baby-crazy" as you think she is, why would she want to wait?

I don't think it's entirely ingenuous, either, to take a statement that says "every person deserves to be loved" and turn it into "therefore there is no reason to want your own children". As I said earlier, I'd be open to adopting, whether an embryo or a born child. That doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't have children that are biologically mine, whether instead of or in addition to adopting.

On another note, there IS new research being practiced where stem cells are harvested without damage to the living embryo, and this MAY be the reason behind Abama's decision.

I was not aware of that. If that's the case, I don't offhand see a moral reason not to pursue it under those circumstances. At the same time, I still look at the successes of ASCR vs. ESCR and wonder whether it's really worth it; but that's a question of prudent economics, not morality.

If the research is never funded, we can never know what benefits may come from it.

Except the research has been funded: privately, by states, and on twenty federally-funded lines. I don't have figures on how much each kind of research has had, do you?

I think most of us probably fear our own death more than the death of someone else, especially when that someone else has already passed.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean it's to our credit if that's the case. And for those of us who believe in God, we have less reason to fear death and more reason to be cautious about what means we use to try to preserve our lives; because we think we're going to face judgment for our decisions. "He who seeks to save his life shall lose it..."

Re: the original Anonymous' later point about abstinence-only vs. broader sex ed, I think there's a lot more to be said than I have time for (as usual - sigh, time, the ultimate limiting factor). But I will offer a couple of thoughts:

The Catholic Church teaches that both artificial birth control and extramarital sex are fundamentally immoral. As such, I don't imagine the Church would be especially supportive of teaching methods of ABC. So you're probably right.

At the same time, except in Catholic schools, I don't see the Church having a lot of authority over what's taught in sex ed. So I'm not entirely sure why that's relevant. Could you help me out, please?

As far as abstinence-only education goes, I haven't seen actual studies. I'm skeptical of reporting on the subject, because someone recently showed me where a mainstream paper had reported that a study found that taking a chastity pledge made no difference in whether teens had sex. The person then showed me the actual study summary, which did indeed show that taking a chastity pledge did not make a significant difference in whether conservative Christian teens who were discouraged from having premarital sex had sex or not. However, the same study found that irrespective of whether the teen had taken a pledge, conservative Christian teens who were discouraged from having premarital sex tended to lose their virginities much later than other teens (early 20s rather than mid to late teens). So while the reporting was factually correct, it was selective to the point of disingenuousness.

So...putting aside the most common objection I've heard to teaching ABC, which is that it sends mixed messages ("Don't do this; but if you do, do it this way"), I guess I haven't been convinced that abstinence education doesn't work. Especially when you look at, say, HIV-prevention programs in Africa, and see that Botswana - which promoted abstinence and fidelity as key to avoiding HIV, not just condoms - has had outstanding success in reducing new infections. I understand that that in itself isn't going to convince you that abstinence education works, especially with teenagers, but I do think it's worth looking at. I am not familiar with actual abstinence-only curricula, but maybe one way abstinence education can be more effective is if kids are told why they shouldn't do it, rather than just "don't".

One last thing: being a "yes man" to the Pope involves withstanding quite a lot of pressure from friends, colleagues, neighbors, and in some cases, the government. I don't think it's accurate to classify a faithful Catholic as a "yes-man" in the usual sense. :-) (As to whether you are one, I couldn't say, but the evidence seems to be against it thus far.)

I can't speak for anyone else, but your views don't scare me. They do sadden me. It's clear that you're sharp enough to get the difference.

Cletus Pages said...

HAHAHAHA!!! You kill me Mystery person.....lol.

And for your information, I have never used any illegal drugs either. I have had the opportunity to use them, but I haven't.

The Prez may have never done that stuff, but he did and will continue to make it easier for women to get an abortion. If he thinks it is such a bad thing, then he should say only when the mothers life is in danger is it acceptable to get an abortion. But no he hasn't done that, and never will. So until this so called "committed christian" changes his views, I will continue to call him a BABY KILLER. Or if you like, I can call him other things. It's called FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

I don't need to hypothetically speak, like you did. I am a construction worker, a carpenter to be more exact. I was laid off for 3 months and just recently went back to work. And yes, my paycheck goes right to the bank. I pay my bills and save the rest, so that if I get laid off again, I can still pay my bills. I laughed at your examples of who would benefit from "you" going back to work. The person to mow your lawn....lol...get off your lazy ass and cut it yourself. I can only think that the police and fire fighters will benefit from the taxes that come out of your check, or if you get a ticket or something. And all the people you listed that work at a restaurant....come on now. Just because you are back to work, you are going to go out to eat more and spend your money, so that when you get laid off again, you have no money and then will be bitching about it. People have learned their lesson about spending money foolishly. I have never been a big fan of going out to eat. It's to damn expensive. I work hard for my money, and I don't feel like over paying for food and beer, when I can go to the store and buy it there and cook it at home for a third of the price.

I'm a yes man....oh boy. Well, I'm saying to you....KISS MY ASS!!!. I don't think the Pope told me to tell you that. I am not a Religious Right wing nut, I speak my mind and stand up for what I believe in.

Thanks for the good wishes on our wedding, I'm not bummed that you won't be there.


MERRY CHRISTMAS and God bless each and every one of you!!!

Hug your mom, hug your dad, have a great day!!!


Cletus

Peanut Publications said...

Ok, I purposely waited until Cletus finished his response before I started mine...I have to regulate his comments sometimes, and believe me...he's being tame. lol I'm going to try to keep this generally short due to the fact that each of us have practically written novels already. Now, onto my umpteenth post...

I will admit, you have made some very interesting, and very convincing arguments here. You are well studied, and a very intelligent person. If I was not so strong in my faith (thanks to Cletus for taking me to church some time ago), you may be able to actually persuade me to change my mind! That's not going to happen though. Like I said earlier, everyone is entitled to their own opinion...and their own beliefs.

You are right, sex is not something to be ashamed of, but I believe that it should be saved for and shared with the one person you are willing to commit yourself to 100%. I think we could make a HUGE impact on the number of teenage pregnancies simply by educating, and enforcing good behavior. Not just by telling them not to do it because as you said, teenagers are rebellious. I know, I was one of them. Do I wish I would have waited? Yes. Do I regret any of it? Not for one minute because it made me who I am today.

I am not going to continue beating a dead horse with going back and forth when we clearly aren't going to see eye to eye on many of these points. I will give you my $.02 on why I should or should not have my own family...

I am not, as you say, "baby crazy". Am I totally excited and anxious to be able to have my own family? Sure! I've always wanted to be able to have my own family, and I truly believe that is where my life is being directed. I can't wait to have a living breathing miracle that is part me, and part my wonderful future husband. I can only pray that we will be half the parents that my parents were to me and my siblings. If I cannot conceive on my own, and I am able to afford it, maybe I will adopt an embryo, or a child of any age. I just know that I was built for a family, and that's where I am headed.

Judging by the way you don't capitalize the word God in any of your posts, I have it narrowed down to one or two people that you might be. I'm going to venture a guess that you're not family though...I would only need to know a general time frame - before, during, or after high school - that you knew me, and maybe for how long. No name, no location, just a time frame.

Thank you for your well wishes on our wedding. Maybe if I knew who you were, I could tell you that you are or are not already invited. :-)

Thank you again for your intellectual input. I wish you all the best.

Fred the Donkey said...

HeeeeeHaaaaaw!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 2 to Anonymous 1:
I have never done drugs of any sort in my life, thank you very much. I have had opportunity, and actually came very close one time, but in the end, I stuck by my beliefs, and "left the party".
I am perfectly aware of how the spending of a paycheck stimulates the economy by passing the dollar down the line from one person to the next. That premise is covered in part by the taxes/gov't portion of my comment.
That is all.

Anonymous said...

You’re right, Peanut. On most of this we will never see eye to eye. So, this will be my last posting in this conversation. I just want to clear some things up and answer a question that I neglected previously (though, I think it may have been rhetorical). I’ll try to keep myself from writing another novel. :)

First, what I would like to clear up. I never said anything about illegal drugs of any kind, though apparently both Cletus and Anonymous 2 thought that I did. I only said that I believe that at least one person here may have, at some point, experimented with smoking something other than tobacco (not necessarily anything illegal).

Second, a comment on freedom of speech. You are right. You do have the freedom to say whatever you please. But, just because you are free to say it doesn’t mean that what you say is not libel, and that you cannot be held responsible for your words. Luckily President Obama has much more important issues to deal with than pursuing every case of libel or slander against him. If you are in any way uncertain of what constitutes libel, you can find a good definition at www.dictionary.com

Next is Peanut’s question, which may have been rhetorical. Would I destroy my own child to further science? My answer to this should be obvious, NO. But, I would participate in the creation of embryos specifically for the purpose of harvesting stem cells for scientific research. There is a big difference between a kicking, screaming child and a ball of cells in a petri dish.

A quote from Kasia: “…for those of us who believe in God, we have less reason to fear death…” Perhaps this is why I am not quite so eager to die. You may have hope that there is something more beyond this life, but for me, there is nothing after death but a box and a hole in the ground. This is also why I am hesitant to send our soldiers overseas to meet their ends, and to help others meet their own. Many of our troops are so young and have so much to live for. Why should we send them to die and to kill for our country when it is not absolutely necessary (Iraq)? And why, when it is necessary (Afghanistan), do we not finish the job in a timely manner, and be done with it?

Kasia, many of the views that I have seen here sadden me as well. It is the fact that I have been assured that some of them are “tame” that makes me a bit nervous. If someone’s tame view is so extreme as to still refer to a person as a “baby killer,” then to what kind of extremes is such a person actually willing to go? If you think they are only beliefs and words, and that there is no real reason to be worried, then please feel free to explain away the actions of people like Paul Jennings Hill. In case you have forgotten, he was the former minister who killed a doctor and a guard, and then seriously wounded the doctor’s wife. This is why the views, and apparent intolerance, that I have seen here scare me.

Finally, Peanut, congratulations on allowing your faith override your intellect. I know you have been trying to study and understand your religion better. If you truly love your faith, I would advise you to not examine it too closely, or you will begin to see through it.

Like I said, this is my final posting for now. If you really think that you have figured out who I am, and would like to continue this, or any other, conversation, then please feel free to drop me a line or talk to me in person. Until then, I wish you the best of luck in all you do.

Sincerely,
Anon.

Anonymous said...

Got the last word there, hoppy. Very proud of ya.

"You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything"